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Hey guys,
Bit of a noob subject for me but I've been reading up on IT qualifications and was wondering if anyone could help me out. I've been reading about CIW and MCSE courses.
Does anyone know anything about these courses? Or do you know any better IT courses around?
And also, I've passed my ECDL..which was just incredibly easy. Is that a good a certificate to have?
Thanks all.
shifty.ricky
09-01-2006, 15:29
Hey guys,
Bit of a noob subject for me but I've been reading up on IT qualifications and was wondering if anyone could help me out. I've been reading about CIW and MCSE courses.
Does anyone know anything about these courses? Or do you know any better IT courses around?
And also, I've passed my ECDL..which was just incredibly easy. Is that a good a certificate to have?
Thanks all.
The general opinion on ECDL is that is rubbish for anything other than basic typing. Its the kind of award Silver Surfers like to have to impress the bowls club.
MCSE in my opinion is a bad qualification. To me IT quals should be more than just an "use our software" and admins should know enough about *nix, Solaris, Sun etc to make recomendations about proper IT solutionsnot just what Microsoft is offering.
Having said that it does interest employers and will more than likley help you get a job. But there are an awful lot of people in IT these days...
One of my friends was training for an 'A+' Technician/IT Award i think it was called, which looked rather good.
Well, all of the certs I have are pretty pointless these days... nobody pays you what they are worth!
I have the mcse and it was good to have when there were very few about but these days every man and his dog has one so the value of them has dropped. They are a good thing to have but I certainly wouldn't pay for my own one again.
The ecdl is really a 'I know how to switch on a pc and use a mouse' course... ok for a secretary but beggar all use in the IT support world. Up to you, but it depends on what you want to specialise in. I went for server systems and email but you might be a networking type person. If you are going for general support/slave then the mcp/mcse is the way to go but if you want to be more networking support/cable monkey then you really need the cisco courses.
IT is not the glamour and glitz everyone thinks it is, most of the time you will be moving pc's from one desk to another or trying to find files that the user has deleted on backup tapes. The money in IT is crap these days too cos the MCSE is worth bugger all and a million kids have been brainwashed into IT making the pay rates drop to the level of shop workers.
If I were you (and I was 17 again) I would go on a course doing plumbing, bricklaying or gas fitter... far more money, better totty to look at and a more flexible job all round.. no shirt and tie in that game!
If I were you (and I was 17 again) I would go on a course doing plumbing, bricklaying or gas fitter... far more money, better totty to look at and a more flexible job all round.. no shirt and tie in that game!
Well said! The money those guys could make is unreal! I've got a few mates who blitzed my flat for the cost of material & the prices they were saying were 'realistic' quotes were mind blowing. It probably is a bit more graft but then when you're getting the money for it you don't mind, well I wouldn't.
DarkEntity
09-01-2006, 19:29
simply put to me by a SUN engineer
Qualifications get you interviews
Experience gets you Jobs.
Big Adam
09-01-2006, 19:32
Plumbing is where it's at.
The IT support jobs market is saturated.
(plumbing pun not intended)
simply put to me by a SUN engineer
Qualifications get you interviews
Experience gets you Jobs.
Too true. Especially these days you can go to a boot camp, learn enough to pass the exam and all in a few days - That makes it completely worthless as you'll not remember any of it out in the field, experience is where it happens. About the only ones left that are worth anything are the top end networking qualifications such as JNCIE and CCIE - you can't get those from a boot-camp without knowing plenty in the first place.
Cable Monkey
12-01-2006, 10:35
The qualification to get is CCNA (Cisco Certified Network Association). Apply for jobs in the Telecoms industry and a lack of experience is not so important because the big thing will be voice or media over IP and no one knows much about that. The next 3 to 5 years are going to provide an explosion in opportunities in this field and when things finally settle down, you can always go on to plumbing then!
The qualification to get is CCNA (Cisco Certified Network Association). Apply for jobs in the Telecoms industry and a lack of experience is not so important because the big thing will be voice or media over IP and no one knows much about that. The next 3 to 5 years are going to provide an explosion in opportunities in this field and when things finally settle down, you can always go on to plumbing then!
I'm afraid CCNA is ten-a-penny due to boot-camps. Of course, CCNA is the start on the road to CCIE. Although if you want a really well paid job, you'd be advised IMHO to look at working towards JNCIE (Juniper equivelant of CCIE) as there are far less people with those qualifications compared to the many boot-camp trained CCXXs
Samsonite
12-01-2006, 20:09
In truth, any short-term course will not be great for getting a good IT career. I look at CVs myself and I don't care about certificates. I want graduates in computer science or similar from a good university (I always check the syllabus just in case it is a "simple" course). A 3/4 year degree course will teach you a hell of a lot more than a little 1/2 week course with a pretty certificate at the end (I did one myself http://www.cs.cf.ac.uk/courses/bsccs/courseinfo.php and it was a fair amount of work).
Slam is largely right in terms of the industry now. IT technicians are 2-a-penny these days. However, there is more to IT than the hardware - we have a software development department (which I happen to work in).
Just by doing the above mentioned course, you will realise how many well paid jobs there are in the IT world.
Software developers can earn over £100,000 per year (I know some!), so go and sign up today! :p
Having done a degree in Software Engineering, I'd not place a lot of faith in Degrees either, there is far too much emphasis on group work these days (lack of marking time they say) that means even those that don't know a deal can get a 2:1 by being carried by those who do know what they are doing.
Experience is what counts, if someone comes to us for a job and they can pass the tests we set, then they are in with a good chance, degree or no degree, other bits of paper or no other bits.
Samsonite
12-01-2006, 22:17
I agree, experience is king. Nothing wrong with having degrees as way of filtering the 100s of CVs I have to look through though. On the flip side, I've seen CVs from 50 year old men who have a lot of experience in IT, but not in anything relevant (to us).
Horses for courses I guess. My company must have a fairly rigid policy due to the fact that all software developers must have a relevant degree + relevant experience. We are fairly well rewarded (although we always want more due to our insatiable greed).
I got my first job as a developer before going to uni (I call it a gap year now). The company offer an extra 5 or 6 grand if you had a degree, regardless of ability.
At the end of the day, anyone could be suitable and get a job, but seeing as this topic was about certificates, a degree certificate from a good uni will help more than any other certificate (IMO).
For the record, the highest paid IT person I know (developer), had no degree or certificates, just 10 years experience at the same company.
Oblivion
14-01-2006, 11:55
there is far too much emphasis on group work these days (lack of marking time they say) that means even those that don't know a deal can get a 2:1 by being carried by those who do know what they are doing.
That is simply not the case, at my University we use 'peer assessments' for group work which means if you don't pull your weight your grade gets dramatically reduced. That means if the group is on course for 70% overall but your doing little work to contribute then you as a individual only get say 40%.
Samsonite
14-01-2006, 12:04
Group projects are not about the end result particularly, it's about personal contribution and how well you work in a group. That's why everyone gets diffrent marks.
In our big group project, one person took charge and did loads of work - nobody wanted to stop him. He got a much higher grade than anyone else.
The biggest peice of work for us was the final year solo project (worth a hefty chunk of the degree). This was a large practical project with a 20,000 word dissertation to go with it :eek:
Quite a few degrees have this (I think they have to to be accredited by the BCS (http://www.bcs.org/bcs) - British Computer Society).
Oblivion
14-01-2006, 12:53
The biggest peice of work for us was the final year solo project (worth a hefty chunk of the degree). This was a large practical project with a 20,000 word dissertation to go with it :eek:
That's what i start doing as of Monday, and i also have to do a full time work placement at the same time. So basically do a full 9-5.30, 5 days a weeks at a busy IT company and write 20,000 word dissertation whilst doing all the mountains of research that go with it, gonna be tough.
That is simply not the case, at my University we use 'peer assessments' for group work which means if you don't pull your weight your grade gets dramatically reduced. That means if the group is on course for 70% overall but your doing little work to contribute then you as a individual only get say 40%.
Take it from me peer review doesn't work, been there, done that, even lecturers know they don't work (I was part of the student council, and we discussed this a few times, along with the general group work issue). Even with peer review, if you give a slacker 40% - that's still going to be 40% of a not as good mark if everyone had actually contributed and known what they were doing - Unless of course you pull some 36-48 hour stints when you realise that the slackers haven't done their part of the work and the deadline is looming.
Dissertation - yes, been there, done that, got the t-shirt - At the end of the day though, it makes up 40 credits (well, a portion of the 40 credits usually along with a smaller piece of work) out of a 120 credit year, which usually counts for 75% of your overall grade with the other 25% coming from the 2nd year (Again 120 credits).
Oblivion
14-01-2006, 17:08
that means even those that don't know a deal can get a 2:1 by being carried by those who do know what they are doing.
Getting a 2:1 isn't that easy, well not on the degree I'm doing anyway, only one person got a 1st last year. so i don't think you can simply "be carried" to a getting a good classification, if only it was that easy!
I'm on my student council as well and in my recent experienced in smaller groups the peer assessment worked and it was better having it in place than nothing at all. In groups there will always be people who will try and get away with doing as little as possible, at least the peer assessment means that they can be justly penalised and the people who do work hard rewarded. With proper project management, regular meetings and monitoring of members it is clear to see which members are meeting their set deliverables and those which aren't.
Samsonite
15-01-2006, 11:53
2:1s were not easy on my course either. Basically if you worked hard and could get to grips with the tougher subjects (Analytical maths and the like) you would probably get a 2:1.
You could get a 1st if you lived and breathed all 36 modules (I didn't!).
ArmedJimmy
27-01-2006, 13:31
I don't agree with a lot of thats been said in this thread.
For a start the MCSE/MCSA certifications (and most professional qualifiations) aren't about learning and getting a qualification like degrees. They are there to back up the fact that you have the expierence and during that experience you actually done something(which is why they are specialised into MS/Linux/Cisco while degrees are general) . Most big employers know this and use the certfications approriatly.
The problem is when people assume that because someone has a qualification that that means they are fully qualified to do a job. Whoever said qualifications gets you interviews, experience gets you jobs was spot on(incidentally a manager at Sun Microsystems in Linlithgow told me the same thing)...but thats what they are supposed to do...its not a failing of the qualification or certificate.
I don't agree with a lot of thats been said in this thread.
For a start the MCSE/MCSA certifications (and most professional qualifiations) aren't about learning and getting a qualification like degrees. They are there to back up the fact that you have the expierence and during that experience you actually done something(which is why they are specialised into MS/Linux/Cisco while degrees are general) . Most big employers know this and use the certfications approriatly.
this is not the case in my experience...
I have found that in a lot of firms that the junior tech gets taken on, shoved through an mcse course and then get the experience. they dont mean diddly squat any more except the fact that that they have done the course.
ArmedJimmy
28-01-2006, 13:58
ok another way to look at it is most, if not all IT shops want to be a Microsoft/Cisco/Citrix or whoever partner, which means you have to have a certain amount of engineers qualified to a certain level(eg MCSE). If you already have that qualification it makes you much more attractive(in a hiring sense at least :p) to the employers.
Samsonite
29-01-2006, 16:18
I think IT is too broad an area these days. E.g. an IT shop is nothing like a software development team, despite being under the "IT" umbrella. In my company, I have to say I'm not in IT otherwise I get asked to fix someone's printer :rolleyes:
You can't learn how to design, develop & test large-scale software on a 2 week course. You could probably learn how to fix a computer in 2 weeks though...
So some courses are worth-while, it just depends which area of IT you are going into.
ArmedJimmy
31-01-2006, 10:27
Another thing this thread has got me thinking about is the myth that there is a severe lack of IT jobs out there.
IMO what has happened is there has been a shift in the IT jobs available(I'm talking IT managers/systems admins here). To work in IT you needed to understand computers top-to-bottom and inside-out and that was really it.
Now employers don't really mind if you don't know their system all that well, that part can be learned. What they are looking for is the ability to make business decisions based on your technical knowledge, troubleshooting and problem solving and project management. Which the majority of will come from relevant experience but there is no real way to measure how relevant it is. So IMO the certificates attempt to show the parts it can show(i.e. that you have learned a system and that you can apply problem solving to it)
renegotiation
02-02-2006, 23:01
Well, all of the certs I have are pretty pointless these days... nobody pays you what they are worth!
I have the mcse and it was good to have when there were very few about but these days every man and his dog has one so the value of them has dropped. They are a good thing to have but I certainly wouldn't pay for my own one again.
The ecdl is really a 'I know how to switch on a pc and use a mouse' course... ok for a secretary but beggar all use in the IT support world. Up to you, but it depends on what you want to specialise in. I went for server systems and email but you might be a networking type person. If you are going for general support/slave then the mcp/mcse is the way to go but if you want to be more networking support/cable monkey then you really need the cisco courses.
IT is not the glamour and glitz everyone thinks it is, most of the time you will be moving pc's from one desk to another or trying to find files that the user has deleted on backup tapes. The money in IT is crap these days too cos the MCSE is worth bugger all and a million kids have been brainwashed into IT making the pay rates drop to the level of shop workers.
If I were you (and I was 17 again) I would go on a course doing plumbing, bricklaying or gas fitter... far more money, better totty to look at and a more flexible job all round.. no shirt and tie in that game!
Lol. And you can get on 'Rogue Traders' and 'House of Horrors' to boot.
renegotiation
02-02-2006, 23:16
On my degree a slacker did sod all in our group and we got marked solely on our presentation. He got the best mark!!!??? A 3 minute question and answer session at the end of the presentation and he was deemed to 'answer' better. The marker didn't even ask 2 of us anything! Ha ha. He got the 1st class mark for the project and we (4 of us) didn't. We all flipped. Major BS. We had nothing individual to hand in. No chance to. If a group is going to be marked in such a fashion, then the same mark should apply to all. That was just 1 module, but still.
ArmedJimmy
03-02-2006, 12:50
Where the group marking usually falls down is when the lecturers are lazy. For it to really work they have to continually monitor progress and make sure people aren't just being told what to say.
Lol. And you can get on 'Rogue Traders' and 'House of Horrors' to boot.
nahh.. I'm good wiv me tools ain't I?
I was always told how neat my installs were when I worked for Chubb fitting burglar alarms, and never had anyone complain about mess being made in their posh houses...
Samsonite
05-02-2006, 10:08
Where the group marking usually falls down is when the lecturers are lazy. For it to really work they have to continually monitor progress and make sure people aren't just being told what to say.
That is completely true. It all comes down to how they assess the group work. For us, we had to keep handing in plans of what each person was going to work on before doing the work. This was the hardest bit because if someone took on too little, they didn't look so good!
It worked quite well though because it encouraged people to not be too lazy if they wanted to make an equal contribution and get more marks.
I want to get into IT but i am undecided, i already have A+ service engineer and an AVCE but im thinking of going to uni but i have no idea which course offers me the best prospects. Only uni im considering is derby because i am not willing to move away, anyone got any suggestions as to what course would be best?
I want to get into IT but i am undecided, i already have A+ service engineer and an AVCE but im thinking of going to uni but i have no idea which course offers me the best prospects. Only uni im considering is derby because i am not willing to move away, anyone got any suggestions as to what course would be best?
what branch of IT do you want to go into? You really need to decide wether you want to go int the support side, taking pleasure in thick users whining and moaning at you all day or programming where you get shut in a dark room and the cleaners push pizza and kebabs through a hatch in the doorway. If you want to earn real money then go to an engineering college, learn a skill such as plumbing or electrician and enjoy life with real people, shagging bored housewives and generally being a 'loadsamoney'. The only money in IT is for senior programmers or high level solaris admins or top grade network specialists.
Well im great with hardware and architecture but programming is ok for me to, although i havent learnt much but when i've tried its been ok. I'm not bothered about earning super money but i just want to go into an area where there are always opportunities and a reasonable wage. I've had a few jobs last couple of years doing various things, but i figure if i have the brain and the skill i might aswell make some use of it. Ever since i got my first PC back in 95 as a youngster i've always wanted my career to be in IT.
well.... most IT jobs don't pay 'a reasonable wage' compared to the rest of the jobs out there. £15k - £25k is about average for support work... to compare it... I get a basic of £26k for driving a shunt unit around a yard 4 days a week.. the average lorry driver is on £30k. Assistant managers at McDonalds get £25k.... Junior IT support staff normally get up to £18k. Plumbers, roofers, electricians et al get between £200 and £400 A DAY.
you need to be in a corporate environment doing programming to earn the big money....
As well as not being a great payer, contrary to what most people believe, it's also got far more people than there are jobs to fulfil. Whereas a good few years ago IT was a safe well paying job now it's just the same as any other with more and more people moving from other professions into it :rolleyes:
Samsonite
19-02-2006, 12:03
you need to be in a corporate environment doing programming to earn the big money....
The company is probably more important than the job if you are starting out.
Unless there is a huge difference in starting salaries, just go for a company that looks after its staff. A good company may give you regular (and substantial) pay-rises, private health care, pension, bonuses, expensive training, lunch allowance, gym membership, etc.
That adds up to a lot!
If you want to be able to earn money in IT then being able to code your own software (in my eyes being a bloody genius) in just about any language is the level you need to be at (software development is where the money is imo). One of my friends from uni graduated last year (information systems management or something), he went once a week (!), did his placement at microsoft and he's just entered the graduate scheme. He's been programming since he was about 12 and knows something about everything and whatever he doesn't know he just learns instantly.
You can't teach that kind of thing and it buggs me as I know he's gonna be sooo loaded. Their are so many people & companies entering IT support type roles that the market is saturated (think price & demand) - i've worked with some large IT support companies (trying to generate new business) and its dam near impossible due to the competition in the market.
Samsonite
19-02-2006, 12:25
Some of the companies I've worked at have taken on unqualified and inexperienced people to learn basic programming. After a year or two they are on ok money. That's one way to take a small slice of the big money pie that a genius software developer gets. Again, this will only be an option in large companies as they have enough staff to support the juniors.
Yep, a good developer can turn their hand to any language given a reference manual. I've always said for years that you can't teach someone to be a really good developer, problem solving is something you're born to do, it can be learnt to a degree, but naturally logical problem solvers will always be better.
The company plays a huge part, my GF has just changed companies, her last one was a small company, pretty crap to be honest, but it was the only job going at the time - Any job is most of the time better than none. Her new company is excellant, better salary, encourages staff to go on training courses - Even pays you if you pass an exam on a recognised qualification (Think it's £100 per pass) and then AFAIK £200 for any recognised qualification you receive - Gets full travel expenses @ 40p per mile (Lots of companies pay a lot less than the full amount they can). Working for a good company can make a good job you enjoy into an absolutely fantastic job.
i knew i could never be an electronic designer. I don't have the mind set for it. I could fix things though, given the circuit diagram and a components catalogue. certainly it is design/developers that get the big bucks, not the fixers.
Samsonite
19-02-2006, 12:37
IT salesmen get massive bucks. You start as a trainee on nothing, but after a few years you can easily get £75k + tasty company car.
Unfortunately everyone hates salesmen. Would you want to be one!?
i knew i could never be an electronic designer. I don't have the mind set for it. I could fix things though, given the circuit diagram and a components catalogue. certainly it is design/developers that get the big bucks, not the fixers.
Which is a shame in a way, as sometimes fixing someone elses work is a lot harder than actually creating it in the first place.
Which is a shame in a way, as sometimes fixing someone elses work is a lot harder than actually creating it in the first place.
it's the way of the world though...
for a prime example... look at the pay rates for photocopier service engineers... lots of work, bugger all money. and usually a vauxhall astra estate as a company car too.
Don't forget getting fingers covered in toner if the one that goes to the uni library is anything to go by...
re-enter
22-02-2006, 00:40
If I were you (and I was 17 again) I would go on a course doing plumbing, bricklaying or gas fitter... far more money, better totty to look at and a more flexible job all round.. no shirt and tie in that game!
Nah dont do bricklaying!!, trust me out in all weather's especially winter being rained off sometime's having no work all week, and then you get covered in *cough* :rolleyes:
May be doing a Plumbing Apprenticeship soon, there's a plumber/heating engineer where im currently working getting £250 a day working only 2 hour's with coffee break's :eek:.
ArmedJimmy
22-02-2006, 13:25
Ignore the people that are saying there is no money in IT its just one view..
My view is there is money if you get into the right things. I walked out of uni with a Honours Degree in Computer Engineering and straight into an 18k a year job. Ok there will be people earning more but this is a marathon..not a sprint.
I think the problem with IT jobs is people being taught things that aren't very usefull...easy to teach but of no use in real world terms. Software Engineers are a good example of this. I know quite a few who the only language they learned at uni was Java. Great if you can find a job in Java development but there aren't many of them about.
Whats a better idea is to learn C or C++ which Java is based on. Then you can get a job in C/C++ OR if need be you can pick JAva up very easily.
This is just one example of Uni's teaching completely the wrong thing. Computer Scientists also have this problem as what they're learning is never going to help actually get you a job. Ok you can work out where the corners of a 3D cude are but what does that help? Software Engineers will get software jobs before you and Computer Engineers will get hardward jobs before you.
What you need to do (and this isn't suitable for everyone) is pick a uni based on what their values of teaching are. I went to Glasgow Caledonian who pride themselves on the fact that not all their lecturers are not just Professors and Doctors but people with real world expeirence. Even the Engineering Council who make all the decisions for the faculty I was in was made up of Business people. The head of it was also the head guy at Sun Microsystems in Linthigow.
I'm not saying getting a good degree will guarantee you a good job...in fact the degree will get you an interview and your own confidence, knowledge and social skills will count as much towards you getting the gig, but getting the interview can often be the hard part.
IT definately isn't the big money maker it used to be and there are jobs out there that require less work and give more pay...but IMHO IT must be one of the most enjoyable jobs out there if you get into the right field for you.
Ignore the people that are saying there is no money in IT its just one view..
My view is there is money if you get into the right things. I walked out of uni with a Honours Degree in Computer Engineering and straight into an 18k a year job. Ok there will be people earning more but this is a marathon..not a sprint.
see what I mean... no money in it....
an honours degree and 18k? its taking the piddle.
lorry driver... no qualifications bar passing an hgv test.. 30k.
assistant manager in mcdonalds... 20k...
shelf filling in tesco's 15k.
operations staff at coca cola... 24k,
mid manager in any corporate with a degree...start at 30k...
when i was in IT, 18k was an insult salary for support work. you started on 25 quid an hour (40 hour week = £1000*52weeks = £52k PA. nowadays you are lucky to get a contract at £12ph = £25k PA. bog standard warehouse work round here pays £8ph= £16k PA and you don't need to waste 3-5 years at uni for it. I have been there and done that... I'm a touch older than ArmedJimmy, I have lived in the real world of IT., have worked retail, clerical, manual and skilled labour in my time and trust me, when I say there isn't money in it then it is true.
I'm just looking in the appointments section of computing magazine (a trade publication)...
business analyst £30k -£45k
3rd line support (central london, usually top rate money) £25k
senior developer £40k (in leeds must have 3-5 years experience)
test engineerr £up to 26k (working for sophos)
support work is not well paid, you need to look at programming or business analyst roles to earn money.
IT salesmen get massive bucks. You start as a trainee on nothing, but after a few years you can easily get £75k + tasty company car.
Unfortunately everyone hates salesmen. Would you want to be one!?
...and it can all go tits up over night. No sales, no pay.
ArmedJimmy
23-02-2006, 13:43
see what I mean... no money in it....
an honours degree and 18k? its taking the piddle.
lorry driver... no qualifications bar passing an hgv test.. 30k.
assistant manager in mcdonalds... 20k...
shelf filling in tesco's 15k.
operations staff at coca cola... 24k,
mid manager in any corporate with a degree...start at 30k...
when i was in IT, 18k was an insult salary for support work. you started on 25 quid an hour (40 hour week = £1000*52weeks = £52k PA. nowadays you are lucky to get a contract at £12ph = £25k PA. bog standard warehouse work round here pays £8ph= £16k PA and you don't need to waste 3-5 years at uni for it. I have been there and done that... I'm a touch older than ArmedJimmy, I have lived in the real world of IT., have worked retail, clerical, manual and skilled labour in my time and trust me, when I say there isn't money in it then it is true.
I'm just looking in the appointments section of computing magazine (a trade publication)...
business analyst £30k -£45k
3rd line support (central london, usually top rate money) £25k
senior developer £40k (in leeds must have 3-5 years experience)
test engineerr £up to 26k (working for sophos)
support work is not well paid, you need to look at programming or business analyst roles to earn money.
Its easy to pick and choose jobs that have high initial pay. And I'll tell you if you think you can earn 30k straight out of uni send me some links. The best by a long way I found was Lloyds TSB at £24k.
You've also go to remeber I live in Scotland and I think the average wage here is lower than in England. In Scotland its only 22k so for having no experience and being 8 or 9 months out of uni I think only 4k short of that is not bad.
I do agree that support(in terms of 1st/2nd/3rd line support) is a bad way to go. You end up with almost no knowledge of the product you are supporting as you aren't using it, just falling a list of troubleshooting techniques and you're pretty much stuck working for the one company.
How I think you can make money in IT support is use it as a means of progressing into either consultancy or IT management. Get into a small or medium sized company and be their sole IT guy and you can slowly build up the experience in that system(windows/unix whatever you want) required by bigger companies or even IT consultants.
We pay an IT consultant for occasional work and I can state without a doubt there is still money to be made there!(with the right experience)
I'm not sure if thats technically IT support though...but you know what I mean.
[edit] o! and a job isn't solely about the money! I don't think I'd be able to any other 9 to 5 job and its easy to say becomeing a plumber is great but other peoples sh*t would bother me!
Samsonite
23-02-2006, 20:17
As someone who has been in IT for a few years now, I can say there is plenty of money in it.
I have to admit that support roles offer rubbish salaries and little career progression, but software development is the way forward. For instance, my company has 3 times as many developers as support staff in IT.
In a large company, there is often a need to develop in-house software and it is cheaper to pay one developer £50k per year (in which they can write 3 or 4 big pieces of software) than to buy each piece of software for £100k each (even then the software won't be bespoke).
There are plenty of well paid IT jobs out there, but as many people have said - software development is where the money is. Unfortunately you do have to spend a lot of time learning to be good enough (whether that be at home or on a 3 year degree course).
Well worth it though :p
In a large company, there is often a need to develop in-house software and it is cheaper to pay one developer £50k per year (in which they can write 3 or 4 big pieces of software) than to buy each piece of software for £100k each (even then the software won't be bespoke).
We have this argument allot regarding one of our products. I do believe it to be true to a certain extent, but with our product in one situation that springs to mind, the client spent 56K Euro and a year writing a solution that didnt work. In two weeks and 45K Euro we rolled out our product, which did more than the provided specification. Furthermore, the end user could change the solution with no developement required.....just a bit of drag and drop :cool:
dave-lew99
23-02-2006, 21:47
Just thought i'd add my 2p...
A lot of graduate jobs only pay in the region of £18k - if you're lucky to get a job that is - i have a friend who graduated with a 1st in Audio Technology at a highly respected university for the course and doesnt have a job getting a year on....
In addition, i have absolutely no IT qualifications yet i was offered an IT graduate job - which i had to turn down as i am not leaving my current degree under any circumstances (and i don't want to work in IT)
ArmedJimmy
23-02-2006, 22:30
Can I ask all the people saying there is no money in support...what are you classing as support?
Do you include consultants, technical enginners and IT managers?
dave-lew99
23-02-2006, 22:36
It depends at what level - there is certainly no money in consumer high-street support.
However there are people working at high-level corporate support where a company will sell their equipment with a guranteed uptime of say 99.9999% and if it goes down they promise a turnaround of max 2 hours and then pay out a certain amount per second that they go over
If you have this job then you get paid silly amounts - however it is high stress and you're on 24/7 call, not to mention if you don't get the repair done and returned on time you're directly responsable for your company having to pay out literally up to thousands of pounds.
Can I ask all the people saying there is no money in support...what are you classing as support?
Do you include consultants, technical enginners and IT managers?
support....
hardware engineers, helpdesk, user support engineers, server support engineer.
the only support staff that buck the crap wages trend seem to be network support engineers.
[GPO]Solitaire
23-02-2006, 23:05
I can agree with Slamdog on most of this!
I'm network support (1 man job in the small company i work in)
wages not good! Looking to move soon :D
Samsonite
24-02-2006, 00:16
support....
hardware engineers, helpdesk, user support engineers, server support engineer.
the only support staff that buck the crap wages trend seem to be network support engineers.
This is exactly the case from my experiences too. Glad I went into software development :rolleyes:
jsnemesis
24-02-2006, 00:55
I'm doing a degree in electronic/electrical engineering, I decided against computer science purely on the basis that I hated support work in IT, didn't much fancy doing a great deal of programming (I don't mind doing some, like C/HTML/etc.) and electronics is just soo much more interesting! Plus, there's a load of money to be made, especially as slam said in design.
ArmedJimmy
24-02-2006, 12:42
I think this thread has gone off a bit...
We all seem to be arguing the only reason to do a job is the pay. I don't know about you but I couldn't do a job solely based on how much money it was going to make me.
I've got what would technically be called IT support and I love it and I don't think any other job would keep me happy. In the space of 3 days I've gone from trying to diagnose a problem with a PC controlling factory equipment, designing a webpage and then today I'm trying to develop an application in C#.
I'd rather do a good job at 18K than a crap one at 25K.
@jsnemesis electronic engineering IMHO is a good area to get into and it's probably only going to get better with everything getting a circuit in it! And I agree; programming anymore than an occasional small program would bug me rotten!
ArmedJimmy
24-02-2006, 12:48
@slamdog who said my wage was crap...
"The average graduate starting salary now stands at £16,393"
from Channel4 money
You've got to remember over the last few years the opinions of how much a degree is worth has pretty much gone through the floor.
@slamdog who said my wage was crap...
"The average graduate starting salary now stands at £16,393"
from Channel4 money
You've got to remember over the last few years the opinions of how much a degree is worth has pretty much gone through the floor.
well, i'm suprised at that....
It has just been my experience that graduates starting salaries were around the 25k mark. ok, some of that was working in the home counties, some of that was cambridgeshire but generally the jobs advertised by companies were in the 25k mark.
like you say, perceptions of what a degree is worth have dropped. I still remember 'the brain drain' in years gone by where it was such a problem for the government that people were getting their degrees and going straight to america and other western european countries to get a decent salary.
as for doing a job you like, not just for money... it is nice if you can get one and afford to live but as you get older and take on responsibilities such as wives, children, mortgages etc. you find that you can put up with crap jobs as long as the money is right. I used to love IT work. I hated having to wear a shirt and tie though.. what burned me out in the end was not getting a holiday in 10 years, y2k and every company blowing all its budget for the next 5 years on fixing the problem and listening to people moan about 'my email isn't working' or 'when will that server be working again?'. I'm glad i gave up on the 'changing toner cartidges because a printer is IT kit' and the 'how do I print this email?' type jobs...
saying that.... driving lorries was the best move I ever made. i hated being stuck in an office so i gained my freedom. I meet normal people, not those who speak in management ******. I get to letch at women as I'm driving and there is always a deal of some sort to be had... from cheap ciggys to electricals...
ArmedJimmy
24-02-2006, 16:42
Thats the thing about jobs - one mans astronaut is anothers shelf stacker!
We all like different jobs, and in a sense thats probably why no one likes to hire graduates...you could like the subject but the actual job is usually completely different (I'm guessing most people on here like troubleshooting their own IT problems but wouldnt nessesarily like a job doing it!)
Another thing is there is a complete lack of HGV drivers just now so thats why you can command such a high wage. But in 5 years who knows, all the government (or whoever runs these things) initiatives to encourage people to take their HGV license could have worked and there could be too many of you...like IT just now. Even look less than a year ago it was forecast software developement jobs in this country were finished as India could provide them cheaper with a higher skill set. Now people are realising this isn't a good idea and that sector is booming.....for just now! :)
Samsonite
24-02-2006, 19:38
To constantly command a good wage (in most IT jobs), you need to keep up-to-date.
If you cover enough bases (skills-wise), then you can be very employable.
Technology is growing and there are always going to be new things to become an expert in. Quite a lot of jobs will allow you to play with the latest technology before it becomes too popular, so you will be in demand if such technology takes off big-time!
The only money in IT is for ... top grade network specialists.
Glad you added that one. :D
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