View Full Version : Home theatre help
Hey guys i`m in the process of building my htpc.
So far I have a haupage 350 card, a geforce 5500 gfx card and thats about it.
Im looking at either the silverstone lc02 or lc11m case.
i got a few questions about other parts though.
1. I want my htpc to be whisper quiet. If possible I want to passively cool the chip. Whats the best CPU to get.
2. o/s wise i`ve been looking at mythtv or a similar linux variation. is this the best option or windows mce great?
3. I'll be plugging my sky digital output into the box but I want to be able to somehow change the channel on sky from this box. e.g. if I`m not at the pooter I want to be able to log on and change channela nd start recording. Do ya know of any peripherals that will allow me to do this?
Thanks for any help
1. I have the LC02 and think its a great case (quite small). The PSU is very quiet and I have fitted a zalman CU700 cooler but I had to gring some of it away to fit in. I can honestly say the rig is whisper quiet as I run the zalman on the minimum speed. The chip (XP2500-M) gets quite warm (up to 35 degs) but it is stable. If I wasbuilding from new (my next project), then I'd go for a low end venice such as a 3000 or 3200. They will provide enough grunt for a HTPC but run quite cool so will need less cooling. I think you might be struggling to passive cool a CPU, you'd have to be looking at a via 800 or similar which lacks processing power really.
2. I've just installed MCE and like it. The reason I put it on was so my missus would actually use the PC and this worked:) The myth setiups look very good but I haven't tried to set one up so can't really comment.
3. I think Brumster did something with his myth setup along these lines? Something about accessing the rig with his mobile phone, I'm sure he'll be along soon to comment:)
six5tring
17-10-2005, 19:17
1) Again i'd use a 3000/3200 939 cpu, get a motherboard with cool'n'quiet on it. They can then control the CPU fan and even stop it when not needed!
2) I use MCE.. love it and think it's probably the best looking interface out there. my whole family can use it :eek:
3) Dunno. Use a freeview card so have never had to go there!
six
Venice does seem a good option.
With MCE is it possible to access media stored elsewhere. ie id be having the htpc with a 80 gb hdisk in it. I`d then have my file server with about 1tb of storage holding my music and films..
The sky digital thing is pretty important.
six5tring
17-10-2005, 20:19
You most certainly can access network storage ect ect it's really just XP pro at heart. You can even get domains to work with a little tweaking - six
stdRaichu
17-10-2005, 20:27
1. I want my htpc to be whisper quiet. If possible I want to passively cool the chip. Whats the best CPU to get.
Depends on budget. An HTPC system shouldn't need much CPU grunt at all, so my money would be on the slowest AMD64 you could find. If you have lots of money, you might want to consider a low-end Pentium-M since they run very cool indeed and require less power to run.
Obviously, if Linux is a possibility, you'er best off with the lowest powered nVidia GPU you can find, preferably fanless since getting ATI cards to work under Linux is far from painless. I've been using a passively cooled FX5200 in the box under the TV, along with an old 120GB Seagate 'cuda IV I had lying around (although all the TV shows are saved on the master backend in my room).
2. o/s wise i`ve been looking at mythtv or a similar linux variation. is this the best option or windows mce great?
I'm a MythTV user, and therefore biased :D Whilst everyone seems to love raving on about MCE, I prefer to save the money and use Linux (which gets me extra flexibility for other things too). You might have problems setting it up if you're not familiar with Linux though, but of course me and brum are both fairly experienced and we can give you plenty of pointers if you want to have a play with it (at least it won't cost you anything but time!).
I went the hard route and used gentoo, but distros like Fedora Core (what Brum uses) and there's at least one distro dedicated to MythTV/PVR boxes.
Hardware-wise, the best option for you would seem to be at least one analogue capture card like the Hauppauge PVR-x50's. They're not fully supported out-of-the-box yet and will require you to install an extra driver called ivtv. This used to be a PITA, but now it's much better. I used it for about a year before I upgraded to DVB cards, and my PVR-250 worked flawlessly with it. Incidentally, DVB cards are well supported under Linux since they all use the same protocol - I'm not aware of any DVB-T card that isn't supported by a modern Linux distro.
3. I'll be plugging my sky digital output into the box but I want to be able to somehow change the channel on sky from this box. e.g. if I`m not at the pooter I want to be able to log on and change channela nd start recording. Do ya know of any peripherals that will allow me to do this?
Not sure how MCE handles this, but I know that Myth supports IRBlaster-type stuff. This means that you install an analogue capture card in your Myth box, and connect the TV-out from the Sky box into that (although there will be a degradation in signal quality - since your're doing digital MPEG2 -> analogue -> digital MPEG2). Myth can then use a simple IR transmitter (you can either build your own or buy one from eBay or something) to send IR commands to the box when you want it to change channels or whatever. For watching live TV, it just relays command from your Myth remote to the Sky box.
I don't acually use that myself though (I'd swallow live scorpions before I gave Mudoch any of my money), so it'd be well worth a look though the MythTV mail archives (http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/mythtv/users/) or the WiKi (http://mythtv.info/) before you commit to anything. Jarod Wilson has also had a complete guide to installing and setting up Myth on Fedora on his site (http://wilsonet.com/mythtv/) for a while now.
MythTV has an excellent plugin called MythWeb which allows for remote administration through the 'net, and IMHO is a must since it's much easier to schedule programs than it is through the TV-based GUI. It supports a WAP interface for non-3G phones. Of course, you do have to configure a web server for external access if you want it available outside your LAN (simple matter of getting your router to forward incoming port 80 to your web server IP address).
Depends on budget. An HTPC system shouldn't need much CPU grunt at all, so my money would be on the slowest AMD64 you could find. If you have lots of money, you might want to consider a low-end Pentium-M since they run very cool indeed and require less power to run.
Obviously, if Linux is a possibility, you'er best off with the lowest powered nVidia GPU you can find, preferably fanless since getting ATI cards to work under Linux is far from painless. I've been using a passively cooled FX5200 in the box under the TV, along with an old 120GB Seagate 'cuda IV I had lying around (although all the TV shows are saved on the master backend in my room).
I'm a MythTV user, and therefore biased :D Whilst everyone seems to love raving on about MCE, I prefer to save the money and use Linux (which gets me extra flexibility for other things too). You might have problems setting it up if you're not familiar with Linux though, but of course me and brum are both fairly experienced and we can give you plenty of pointers if you want to have a play with it (at least it won't cost you anything but time!).
I went the hard route and used gentoo, but distros like Fedora Core (what Brum uses) and there's at least one distro dedicated to MythTV/PVR boxes.
Hardware-wise, the best option for you would seem to be at least one analogue capture card like the Hauppauge PVR-x50's. They're not fully supported out-of-the-box yet and will require you to install an extra driver called ivtv. This used to be a PITA, but now it's much better. I used it for about a year before I upgraded to DVB cards, and my PVR-250 worked flawlessly with it. Incidentally, DVB cards are well supported under Linux since they all use the same protocol - I'm not aware of any DVB-T card that isn't supported by a modern Linux distro.
Not sure how MCE handles this, but I know that Myth supports IRBlaster-type stuff. This means that you install an analogue capture card in your Myth box, and connect the TV-out from the Sky box into that (although there will be a degradation in signal quality - since your're doing digital MPEG2 -> analogue -> digital MPEG2). Myth can then use a simple IR transmitter (you can either build your own or buy one from eBay or something) to send IR commands to the box when you want it to change channels or whatever. For watching live TV, it just relays command from your Myth remote to the Sky box.
I don't acually use that myself though (I'd swallow live scorpions before I gave Mudoch any of my money), so it'd be well worth a look though the MythTV mail archives (http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/mythtv/users/) or the WiKi (http://mythtv.info/) before you commit to anything. Jarod Wilson has also had a complete guide to installing and setting up Myth on Fedora on his site (http://wilsonet.com/mythtv/) for a while now.
MythTV has an excellent plugin called MythWeb which allows for remote administration through the 'net, and IMHO is a must since it's much easier to schedule programs than it is through the TV-based GUI. It supports a WAP interface for non-3G phones. Of course, you do have to configure a web server for external access if you want it available outside your LAN (simple matter of getting your router to forward incoming port 80 to your web server IP address).
Thanks for the advice mate.
As I said earlier i got a haupage 350 card so the encoder is sorted. graphics I got an old gf 5500 which I can run fanless.
With looking at the silverstone lc02 and lc11m cases i`m gonna need an matx mobo.
Another question i forgot is how much ram would I neeD?
In worst case scenaria I`d want to be able to record a program whilst watching a film from.
With looking at the silverstone lc02 and lc11m cases i`m gonna need an matx mobo.
I use a full size ATX in my LC02 with no trouble:)
I thought it was matx only conan?
stdRaichu
17-10-2005, 23:04
Thanks for the advice mate.
As I said earlier i got a haupage 350 card so the encoder is sorted. graphics I got an old gf 5500 which I can run fanless.
With looking at the silverstone lc02 and lc11m cases i`m gonna need an matx mobo.
Another question i forgot is how much ram would I neeD?
In worst case scenaria I`d want to be able to record a program whilst watching a film from.
Aye, the x50's are a corking range of cards if you want analogue capture - although IMHO you'll also want to throw a DVB-T card in there so that you can watch something on Digital if you're recording off the Sky box, or vice versa.
A mATX case will do you proud, but as conan points out some of the Silverstone media cases take full ATX boards, which gives you much more flexibility with regards to tuners. Also, there are very few 939 mATX boards out there at the moment and are of sometimes questionable quality - most popular ones seem to have the ATI 200 chipset in, which is very poorly supported in Linux due to ATI's interminably awful Linux support.
As far as Myth is concerned, if you want to run a combined frontend (the bit that displays the GUI and plays back the TV recordings) and backend (the bit that records stuff and sends it to the frontends) on the same machine (as well as the MySQL database and the web server), you'll want at least 512MB of RAM. If the most demanding thing you want to do is play back a movie whilst recording, any decent computer won't break a sweat - using a hardware capture card only uses minimal CPU. My PVR-250 used about 1-2% capturing, the DVB cards use even less. You'll be more limited by I/O than anything else. By way of a metric, my media box under the PC is also used as a DistCC (distributed code compiler) node and a transcode (clustered video encoding) render node and it still performs fine. For your needs, an AMD64 3000 with CnQ turned on would rarely need to clock at over 1GHz.
One point I can't stress enough - avoid VIA chipsets at all costs. TV cards tyically use large amounts of DMA traffic, and VIA chipsets are notoriously poor in this area. That said, the KM400 in my media box seems to work fine, but I'll be much happier once I finally replace it with a 939/nForce combo. The upcoming boards based on the new nForce 6100 IGP's look very promising, with the added advantage of not needing a heat-pumping GFX card. I'm using a venerable CoolerMaster 620 BX as my case, which limits me to mATX boards only (although I do get to use standard ATX PSU's), and whilst it's not exactly cool (there's only a 60mm fan for cooling), it doesn't run too hot to be unstable at all.
One thing I don't know if you've considered is wireless LANs, cos I don't know if you're going to be using one. Whilst 802.11g is theoretically able to stream MPEG2, in reality it can rarely keep up and you'll get dropped frames. So if you do plan on saving the TV programmes to another machine, make sure it uses wired ethernet.
I thought it was matx only conan?
No, it'll take a full size mobo OK. A matx would be easier for the riser cards I think, I had to buy a flexible PCI riser for my TV card and its right up against the AGP riser but it does fit OK.
brumster
18-10-2005, 00:00
I think Brumster did something with his myth setup along these lines? Something about accessing the rig with his mobile phone, I'm sure he'll be along soon to comment:)
Doh, sorry, never really check out the Small Form Factor forum but since HTPC moved in here I guess I'll have to pay attention a bit more :)
stdRaichu has covered this already though.
I do indeed use MythWeb via my Sony Ericsson P900 to get back home and change recordings if I need to, but I'm purely using DVB-T so not using the IR-blaster kind of thing. But, as has been said, it can be done. The beauty of MythWeb is that it senses your web client screensize, and so PDAs get a reduced frontend that's much more useable than the full version you get via a normal PC browser.
Ditto the hardware requirements - disk space is about all you seriously need.
My WalkThrough is really rather pointless now, since the advent of Fedora Core 4 the Myth installation with a Nova-T card is the proverbial P.o.P. I am currently rebuilding the backend with a dual-core A64 and it was soooo much easier (only problem I have at the moment is they've gone and broken the SiL RAID drivers, so I've a little kernel hacking and recompiling to do, but getting a dab hand at that these days :D ).
I chuckle when I think of people who must have to spend a bucketload of hardware for an MCE system, then pay for the OS as well. Granted, stdRaichu and myself use dual-cores simply because we want those transcodes to finish a bit quicker, plus we use the boxes for other stuff, but if it was a simple HTPC with no other requirements, you'd be amazed what good use an old P2/P3/Athlon can be put to if you've got one kicking around :)
stdRaichu
18-10-2005, 02:29
stdRaichu and myself use dual-cores simply because we want those transcodes to finish a bit quicker, plus we use the boxes for other stuff, but if it was a simple HTPC with no other requirements, you'd be amazed what good use an old P2/P3/Athlon can be put to if you've got one kicking around :)
Indeedy. Transcodes aside, the backend requires very little CPU time to run, and all the frontends need is enough CPU to decode whatever you're playing on it - DVD/DVB-format MPEG2 and MPEG4 will run just fine on an old 733MHz P3. If you use the acceleration you get on nVidia cards (XvMC), you can get away with even less. Decoding HDTV (1080p) will require a ~1.2GHz chip and an accelerated GFX card.
As Brumster points out, all you need is discspace - and lots of it. I started off with a 120GB drive, then a 320GB LVM and now I'm beginning to think even a terabyte won't be enough :D If you can get away with it, just dump all your discs in a file server somwhere that's allowed to be noisy and just keep an OS drive in your HTPC box.
ATM I got 800 Gb of disc space. I`ll be putting 600Gb of that in a file server.
I know mce can access files off a server but will myth be able to as well?
brumster
18-10-2005, 11:21
Yep, do it myself. Just map to your file server (via smbclient if it's Windoze, or NSF if it's another linux box) and put it under your video directory... browse and watch away in Myth :)
Cool :D
Looks like myth is the way to go then :D
Think I`ve got all the info I need now. If I think of anything else I`ll post again :D
i`ve almost decided on the lc11m case. The lc02 looks good but the fact that It doesnt take a full size dvd is a bad point. Plus the lc11m has the screen etc.
Got a question though. firstly can the screen be used with mythtv.
Secondly I cant seem to find any decent matx boards what is a good choice for this. the only ones i seem to be able to find are the ati ones :S
brumster
18-10-2005, 15:43
Got a question though. firstly can the screen be used with mythtv.
I would have thought so - I did a quick dig around and found this (http://www.harbaum.org/till/twonky/) ;)
Great find hehe.
That looks pretty much what I want :D
Now to find a mobo and cpu
stdRaichu
18-10-2005, 16:45
Secondly I cant seem to find any decent matx boards what is a good choice for this. the only ones i seem to be able to find are the ati ones :S
You might also wanna look out for the Foxconn NF48MA-KS and the Gigabyte K8NMF-9 - none are going to win any awards for performance, but they're small and do the job. Downside is that they're both PCIe only (and I imagine most mATX boards will be from now on), which is why I'm waiting for things like this (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813138264) before I upgrade.
:(
AGP was important really. I`ve got an agp card ready for the set up.
hmm.
Rchiileea
19-10-2005, 09:40
i would personly get somthing basic mobo wise for a media pc, go for the cheaper route, for example get a old 478 mobo for the mainboard ( or the old socket A) to keep costs down.
Remember you wont be building a overclockable high spec rig here but rather a normal PC in a Media shell.
i would personly go down the P4 478 route even though my own is a AMD 2500xp, its only that chip because i allways end up having to use the P4s for somthing else.
http://www.asrock.com/images/MB/P4Dual-915GL.gif
As its micro i would suggest you Ask Sales if they can get you a ASROCK socket 478 board as when you got the cash you can upgrade to pci express gfx if you wish. i can comfirm it works with a connect3d x800xl, sapphire x800xl (both non vivo versions) and a crucial X850XT. i have also tried a few agp cards lying around including my old Nvidia GEFORCE 128 and Geforce 3 ti200 working in this. has 8 channel sound and does the job fine.
i would personly get somthing basic mobo wise for a media pc, go for the cheaper route, for example get a old 478 mobo for the mainboard ( or the old socket A) to keep costs down.
Remember you wont be building a overclockable high spec rig here but rather a normal PC in a Media shell.
i would personly go down the P4 478 route even though my own is a AMD 2500xp, its only that chip because i allways end up having to use the P4s for somthing else.
http://www.asrock.com/images/MB/P4Dual-915GL.gif
As its micro i would suggest you Ask Sales if they can get you a ASROCK socket 478 board as when you got the cash you can upgrade to pci express gfx if you wish. i can comfirm it works with a connect3d x800xl, sapphire x800xl (both non vivo versions) and a crucial X850XT. i have also tried a few agp cards lying around including my old Nvidia GEFORCE 128 and Geforce 3 ti200 working in this. has 8 channel sound and does the job fine.
is that board agp and pci-e?
Another question :D
does mythtv allow you to burn the programs /films on to discs?
WOndering if putting a dvd writer in the box is worth while
stdRaichu
19-10-2005, 12:15
does mythtv allow you to burn the programs /films on to discs?
WOndering if putting a dvd writer in the box is worth while
Yes, but it's not yet part of the Myth suite yet and is only available as a third party plugin, and you might find it a bit cumbersome to use (the interface was designed to be used via a remote, so you don't get any authoring options). Personally I use a seperate program (or rather a collection of programs - transcode/ffmpeg, dvdauthor, mkisofs and k3b) to burn DVD's of stuff, although I've only done it a couple of times.
There's also nuvexport, a collection of shell scripts that intergrate with Myth that allow you to convert TV to DVD from the command line.
I also believe it's possible to configure the Hauppauge PVR cards to capture straight to a DVD-compliant MPEG2 stream, so you can eliminate the transcoding step.
Cool :D
I dont mind if the interface is cumbersome its just the fact that If I have a program I have recorded I`d like to be able to burn it to a disc and away I go :D
Plus dvd rw isnt too expensive now :D
brumster
19-10-2005, 13:38
nuvexport makes things nice and easy and, because it's a script, you can set up cron jobs and scheduled times to export stuff out as you need it.
I don't normally transcode everything as routine because most of the time I watch it and delete it, but when I pick and choose (mainly films) I transcode them out of myth using nuvexport. This can dump them to a DVD-compliant stream, as stdRaichu points out. I tend to burn it manually after I've edited out all the adverts and what not - a mixture of IfoEdit, Mpeg2Schnitt and ProjectX, with your plain old Nero to do the actual burning. The DVDs only serve as a backup, really.
The other thing I've got going (just needs some finalising) is I've written a shell script to scan the DVD reader in the backend box, make a best-guess as to which tracks on there are films (and not menus or bonus features and extras on the DVD), then rip it down with the approporiate audio track, transcode it to XVid and file it away for watching. The idea is I can just throw DVDs into the box and let it rip them overnight without any interaction on my part - DVD::Rip works great but needs manual intervention (it's a GUI app).
Got another question again :d
You guys are gonna get annoyed with me soon :D
With mythtv how easy is it to make your own skin for the interface?
brumster
19-10-2005, 14:16
That I'll have to duck out of, as I've no idea :o
There's plenty supplied with it, though (at least as part of the mythtv theme package on FC) so you don't have to go with the standard one.
stdRaichu
19-10-2005, 16:38
With mythtv how easy is it to make your own skin for the interface?
I'm not sure on this either, but IIRC it's all just XML and PNG's. If you download the skins package (http://mythtv.org/modules.php?name=Downloads&d_op=viewdownload&cid=1) you'll be able to see what they're made up of. TBH I imagine the hard part is making the images in the first place...!
It's also possibe to configure your own buttons on the interface if you want to add things , although I've not attempted this myself. Some people have added an "Eject DVD" button for example.
Rchiileea
19-10-2005, 22:15
is that board agp and pci-e?
yes it is both :p
Cool :D
THat looks like a possible winner then :D
Although saying that after seeing another post on the boards the silverstone 16m is looking a possibility and that takes a full size atx mobo. Lol. decisions decisions.
Just been looking at parts. Is this mobo ok?
Gigabyte 8I865GVM-775-P4.
Chip wise would a celeron do the job? As stated before this box is purely for home theatre and wont be used for gaming etc. Looking at cpus woulkd a 3.0 ghz celeron be ok or is it overkill/underkill?
Cheers
Probably ovberkill to be honest, you donīt need a 3 Ghz CPU for vids and music. But, if the price is OK then itīs fine for the job.
Rchiileea
23-10-2005, 08:30
If you are going for a Dual tuner setup, to watch and record at the same time 3.0 is not over kill
brumster
23-10-2005, 10:43
A 3 will be plenty - even for dual tuner setup, if it's digital. DVB streams takes pretty much no processing to dump down to disk and likewise just as little to play back on a modern-ish graphics card. It's the transcoding that takes all the gumption - a Cellie D will do the job nicely, on a budget.
Brumster. if budget is no problem would I be better going for something more expensive.
As I say the box is purely for tv recording, playback, music playback etc.
brumster
23-10-2005, 17:09
Well, there's the question - "if budget is no problem" then get a Dual Xeon ;)
No, seriously, I'd concentrate the money on things that are more important for a HTPC machine than CPU. If we're talking MythTV here (and I hasten to point out that this advice wouldn't apply to a Windows MCE solution) then a P4 Cellie will honestly do you fine - transcodes will naturally take a little longer than a full-blown P4, but if my Athlon XP 2600 can do transcodes at 20-25fps then your Cellie is going to be no worse.
I would focus the cash on a decent case, a decent PSU and/or larger (or more quiet) hard drives.
Hard drives are gonna be hosted in my file server.
Case is gonna be the silverstone 11m. PSU is the one that comes in it unless I can find a better model that will fit in the same space :D
brumster
23-10-2005, 20:08
Save yer cash, then :)
Sorted then.
Gigabyte 8I865GVM-775-P4.
Intel Celeron-D 3.0 GHZ
1 Gb PC3200 DDR Memory
hauppage 350 PCI card
geforce fx5200 128mb card
Silverstone LC11m Black
120 Gb western digital ide hard drive
Pioneer DVR-110.
The hauppage comes with a remote so i`ll prolly use that for controlling the box for now.
Sound a good spec?
What are the ATI matx mobo`s like for HTPC`s?
I`m starting to think that I could maybe use the 3200 chips from my PC and then buy myself a shiny new x2 cpu for my own rig.
stdRaichu
31-10-2005, 15:37
What are the ATI matx mobo`s like for HTPC`s?
As far as Linux goes, support is currently poor. Personally I'm holding out for the Asus A8N-VM CSM (http://forums.kustompcs.co.uk/showthread.php?t=33153) before I upgrade my media box (which'll get the 300 from my workstation once it's finally upgraded to an X2) - the onboard GFX save me a packet having to buy a PCIe GFX card, and the heat savings will be immense.
I just did a bad thing.
I ordered an x2 4200 for my main ring. My htpc will now be running my old 3200.
Ordered a gigabyte nforce4 board as well.
Just a bit of an update.
The spec of my htpc seems to have changed a bit :o
The current parts I have are
asus a8n sli board
nvidia 6200 graphics
1 gig corsair ram
xp64 3200
120 gig seagate drive
2 200 gig maxtor drives
hauppage 350 capture card.
I am gonna be putting all this in the silverstone 16m case :D
I was having some issues with the previous mobo not starting first time but this one should be a lot better :D
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