View Full Version : Pay as You Go road tax
timShady
09-06-2005, 15:33
Anyone watching the news will probably be aware of Labours proposal to introduce pay as you go road tax, and scrap fuel tax and the current Vehicle Excess Duty system. The main purpose is to reduce congestion on the roads.
The idea is that this will make owning a car cheaper for half of us (and more expensive for the other half presumably).
I personally am hugely against this proposal, for a number of reasons.
Firstly, the problem it wants to solve (congestion) is it's own deterent. Nobody wants to sit in traffic, but do it because we have to. By making us pay more to do it, we still have to do it.
There needs to be a reasonable alternative, that to be honest doesn't exist. Public transport in the UK is way behind the rest of europe. Unless it gets better, it simply isn't an option for many people.
More thank likely it will be us that has to foot the bill to have these devices installed in our car, much like the £96 that ID cards are going to cost us.
The loss of privacy you get with the government knowing exactly where your car is and at what time. It wouldn't shock me if automatic instant speeding fines crept it's way into the system.
The proposal doesn't encourage people to drive environmentally friendly cars. No matter what size your engine, you pay the same.
They imagine costs of up to £1.34 a mile for motorway traffic during peak time. Ok I live in Cardiff right now, but my girlfriend lives in Bracknell. That's 120 miles (240 round trip). Say I travell at peak times, that would cost £321.60 to get there and back. I do this journey about once every two weeks. I fail to see how to see that even without fuel tax the new system would cost me about the same.
The cost to transport goods around the country will just push up the prices.
If they want to reduce rush hour congestion, they should promote flexable hours with employers, or help work from home schemes.
I fail to see how this new scheme will help anyone at all. If anyone see's differently, I am more than willing to listen to their argument.
slartiBardfarst
09-06-2005, 16:19
if it comes in, companies and schools will operate at different times by pricing workers and parents off the roads at current peek hours.
some companies start at 6:00, others at 10:00, same with schools. if you get the mix right there will be no rush hour traffic.
this in itself is no bad thing and could be done relatively quickly. there is no need to suck yet more money out of the motorists pockets.
i certainly don't buy that this will be a tax neutral scheme. government always wins.
one of 2 things will eventually happen. it becomes so expensive to drive a car in this country that the people will rebel against it, the government gets no more money.
or, they get their way and millions move to public transport, and the government looses all their revenue so move on to tax the hell out of the next thing on the list.
brumster
09-06-2005, 16:45
Agreed, it won't really solve the problem of congestion. However in principle I like the idea of paying for the miles you actually do. However, a far simpler way of doing this is to abolish road tax and tax all your vehicles through fuel.
Those driving gas guzzlers pay the penalty, and it directly targets those doing all the travelling. And it doesn't require any gadgets or big brother gizmos. It achieves exactly the same thing, if that's what their plan is. I for one imagine that there's much more to it than that, because the concept doesn't make economic sense if it's simply to reduce congestion on the roads. The road user is taxed far too much as it is anyway, so maneouvering the way we pay like this isn't really making things better for us in any way. It's bloody simple, Tony - population increases, public transport still isn't cost effective, the cost of living is going up and the number of road users increases. That means more money in their coffers - who's interested in reducing the number of cars on the road? Certainly not the government - the more the merrier!
It's just another of many real steps towards that 1984 ethos.
sniperpenguin
09-06-2005, 16:59
Any investment into the public transport system would have to be fairly gradual, since no one will take the risk of any radical changes being a failure.
A clean, efficient system over a large distance would need to operate, since most of the congestion comes from people living out of town/city (for cost reasons) driving into work. So any wonder bus/train couldnt be just within a short radius. THe safest bet would probably be a VERY large investment into the rail system (i.e stations, more trains, but mainly upgrades to the tracks themselves).
I think it's great - the rich can travel and the poor can stay at home.
I'm gonna get be a big V12, fuel will be cheap so what the heck! :)
/Sarcasm Off
i do think however there has been a lot of scare-mogering in this case though, the press and reporters blowing it out proportion with regards to prices, and instantly making people oppose it. With regard to the tracking system, very complicated and costly. One thing I woulndt oppose though is car tracking. If someone murdered one my close family members and someone caught their car reg, it would be nice to track them...
just a thought :p
Isn't that rather like saying we should extend the criminal tagging scheme to cover the whole population - I mean, just in case we do anything wrong..
George Orwell is spinning in his grave..
Yeah damn right! homing beacons on every single person in the woooorld! whahhahahaha!! Then i can have control..
George Orwell? Sorry, i don't read much poetry
Basically in 100 years time or maybe longer there will be tracking on cars, money will be in small chips under your skin, and we will all have ID cards! It will happen sooner or later.
hmm think i have been working a little too hard today.
brumster
09-06-2005, 18:44
George Orwell? Sorry, i don't read much poetry
Luddite ;)
kessellrun
09-06-2005, 18:53
Tracking is already available in cars, optionally on or 24/7, the choice is yours. Or not if you have a company car in some cases (which by the way is heavily taxed!!!!)
To take it one step further, there are companies out there who will track ANY mobile phone number you want. For a fee of course.
And ID cards are, no pun intended, on the cards.
As for money, why do we need chips under our skin when at this very moment there are chips in most people's wallets, ie credit/debit cards.
And what really gets me is the latest speed cameras (which are being flung up along the A77 at the moment, you locals) which track your average speed over a distance, then lo and behold you get a fixed penalty through the door.
So to summarise:
No police cars chasing you, ie. less patrol cars, less petrol used, less coppers.
No 'do you know what speed you were doing, sir?', ie no chance of a cop on a good day.
And, crucially, no additional expense involved in earning revenue for the government.
Safer roads? My big fat hairy...
I am SO hacked off with this country at the moment...
Brumster, you are sooo right. All they need to do is scrap the road tax and hike the petrol price. Nice and simple, no extra cost for government, no complicated systems to break down. One thing though, they see that as a real vote loser though how their current proposals are any better, gawd alone knows!
But, beware folks, the petrol duty will NOT be scrapped, it won't even be reduced by a major percentage because this will encourage us to "use more petrol because it is cheap". Even if they do reduce it, it WILL start creeping back up very quickly.
No, the main object is revenue and a very very nice sideline - the ability to track an individual easily and cheaply. And you are right, it won't just be anyone at random but say you are a visible political activist, doing nothing illegal, and scoring damn good points against the government. You will be checked up on - especially if there is anything they can smear you with. In that case, do you think they WON'T use the tracking facility?... Anyone?
All these new acts - the R.I.P. act, ID cards, etc. don't give the State any new abilities but it does make it far far easier, far far cheaper, and also in huge numbers.
In the early nineties, a consultative paper was put forward by a government minister which discussed satellite tracking to combat speeding, linked to electronic banking which would be designed to take the fine from your bank account automatically. None of this is new, the state has had these desires for years and now technology is allowing them to bring them to fruition.
Cosmo_1847
09-06-2005, 21:19
I am 16 years old and will be learning to drive soon, (off the road) and i think things are already stupied as they are. If you want to get ride of traffic jams, dont make us go to work and drop off the kids at the same time. this will especaily affect me as i have to drive past two primary schools just to get anywhere.
i agree with the petrol being taxed and road tax being removed. that way do dont get people with massive engines polluting the world. and the people that dont do much driving, maybe just the shopping once a week dont have to pay alot as they dont drive much.
Computers good :)
computers controling us bad :(
i dont realy like the idea of ID cards of everybody, but i have been given two by the school. And the idea of being tracked whereever you go in just taking it abit to far. As far as i know if you have a tracking device in your car that you had installed. when your car is stolen you phone up the company and ask them to remote activate it and then the police can see it. i think you can also stop the car from being started again once its activated. but if you are driving along the A12 at about 3AM on the way back from your mates your not going to be doing 70mph are you. your going to be going motorway speeds and you will end up with a fine throught your door with a Map of the location of where you where speeding.
Am i ever going to be able to drive a car. Goverment, Insureance. getting a car is the easy bit.
It's simply a ruse to get more tax under the guise of 'doing something' about congestion.
In addition it will only target law abiding citizens, can you really see someone with no tax or insurance installing a tracking device?
Yet another step on the way to a totalitarian state.
shifty.ricky
09-06-2005, 23:57
They can put a GPS reciever in my car. I'll rip it out wrap in in lead and anything else to clock the signal. Ah well 0 miles per year for me.
timShady
10-06-2005, 04:19
I fancied the idea of a big magnet against the hardware.
slartiBardfarst
10-06-2005, 05:06
it's going to be a good 10 years off yet. 50% of the population will have emigrated by then if things carry on so i won't worry too much about it. :)
What really makes me laugh is that a Labour Government is going to make the roads less congested and who will benefit?... the rich and the privileged!!
Isn't it strange how new laws never adversely affect those who make the new laws? What odds that the ministerial cars will be exempt (including going home from work trips). Any odds that ministers private cars will be exempt as well - and their direct families? You don't think so? Wanna put money on it?
The £1.34 per mile charge is particularly cruel. It is such a huge sum that people will be desperate to avoid it. But Public Transport can't possibly handle the extra bodies coming off their cars. So many people will have to keep using their cars but they can't possibly afford it if they have to drive a 30 mile round trip all at £1.34 per mile. That's about £10,000 per year. Add the normal £1,500 per year for running costs (assume the car is paid for) now "gross" that total up to find the pay you need to generate that net pay. It would be about £18,000 per year and that's just to get to work and back!
F A B Scott
13-06-2005, 16:32
On this occasion I start to believe there's something in the conspiracy theorists ideas.Originally posted by Alan
What really makes me laugh is that a Labour Government is going to make the roads less congested and who will benefit?... the rich and the privileged!!It reminds me of the gay-age-of-consent law they brought in ......a bunch of over fourty-year-old male MP's voting in favour of making it legal to have sex with 16 yr old boys. [who can't even actually vote themselves] :mad:
oh yeah BTW George Orwell was an author [of books..1984 etc]not a poet. :rolleyes:
I think I'll drive everywhere in reverse, then they'll owe me.
Samsonite
14-06-2005, 20:27
It would be a bit nasty for me as I live in Cardiff (near the motorway) and work in Bristol. I cover about 100 miles per day on the M4 in the rush hour, which will apparently cost me £35,000 per year for the daily commute. I car share with my mate, so it would only cost a mere £17,500 each!
Public transport is so bad that it costs 50% less to car share even though the Severn bridge is £4.80 per day and petrol is about £7 per day.
It would take me 2 hours instead of an hour if I used public transport because don't live near the city centre and have to get a bus to the train station.
People will be forced to live in the centre and only work in the centre.
The goverment should introduce some decent public transport or even make it free during the rush hour if they want to reduce congestion. The only people they are hurting are the people who don't have a choice how they get to work!
:mad:
Cable Monkey
17-06-2005, 12:15
Pay as you go tax would be a great idea. I think if pressure were bought to bear in the right places, public transport would improve as would peoples working habits. Car sharing, working local to where you live (or going to live where you work) and a willingness to use public transport would become more of an option for many. I think part of the problem is us using the greater availability of cars as a means of travelling much more than is neccessary.
an author [of books..1984 etc]not a poet. :rolleyes:
Ah so someone other than Brumster got it ;) Animal Farm is probably one of his most famous works (aside from '84). My english teacher used to tell us off for leaning back in chairs - 'fours legs good, two legs bad' to quote..
Anyway, back OT - it's a stupid idea that will never get off the ground due to privacy issues and the fact it'll simply favour the rich (or those in rural areas - which is a bit silly as the majority of people in the UK live or work in cities/towns).
The nearest they'll get is toll roads IMHO.
F A B Scott
17-06-2005, 14:11
Any idea that de-congests the roads suits me.....as long as I can be exempt...hehe.
There will only be rich people and all the exempt disabled/pensioners with a sprinkling of criminals driving around on untaxed vehicles left on the roads. :eek:
Probably cause a revolution. :D
I think it's great - the rich can travel and the poor can stay at home.
That's just life, whatever scheme is brought in. Pay as you go road tax and congestion charging will favour the rich just as much as a massive petrol increase.
I think part of the problem is us using the greater availability of cars as a means of travelling much more than is neccessary.
I think that's spot on. Public transport used to be better simply because there was more demand for it and fewer people had cars.
Whoever said most people live and in and around cities, are you aware that 2.5 million people over the age of 65 alone, live in rural areas, with 1.1 million of those in remote rural areas. I think people living in rural areas (and that encompasses a lot of people) need a way round the idea of higher fuel prices because this group includes a larger than average number of people with lower than average incomes, who have a real need for their cars (ie there is no bus alternative to access essential services). If living in the countryside becomes prohibitively expensive, the local population of villages will die out and the property just become some wealthier person's second home.
F A B Scott
19-06-2005, 19:38
Originally posted by Moira
If living in the countryside becomes prohibitively expensive, the local population of villages will die out and the property just become some wealthier person's second homeYeah exactly,
I live in a little village where if you don't have a car you have to wait ages for a bus [if one decides to pass your way at all] then sit on a manky old bus for an hour and a half while it calls in at every tiny hamlet on the way to the nearest small town[Chester le Street....nr u Moira] and then the same on the way back. The few times I had to ,due to a stitch up by the police re driving[soon to be entered in Rant forum] it actually made me vomit through travel sickness[doesn't help with it being hilly round here], luckily I had a bag. Since then I 've done it in a taxi[the journey that is :rolleyes: ] a few times...cost me about £8 each way....its only ten minutes in a car[6-7 miles I think]
And hence, some people who need to have a car will suffer while non-necessary driving will continue. They should up the driving age to 25 minimum and make kids either walk to school or provide them with a bus.[which I see is the sudden new idea of this government]
While I'm at it they should BAN 4 X 4's.
Thank you for listening. :)
liadbacklad
17-07-2005, 14:31
I am an 18 year old student with a car living in the countryside in west wales and i would benefit and lose out at the same time.
Benefit:
Cheaper fuel plus the fact i am in the countryside means going from 6000 miles a year to about 60000+ a year. which can't be good for anyone.
The lose out:
with my increased mileage so will my 'skill' at driving increase and i will no doubt drive faster and faster untill i have a fatal accident.... :(
I think car tax (the one that goes on the windscreen) is perfect, if it all went back into the roads.
Fuel tax makes me ****ed off because it is so expensive it's pricing people off the road and there exists no REAL alternative to driving your own car,
- electric cars? they don't have enough range for me to even get to work,
- bicycle? we get 2000mm of rain so NOOOOO!
- public transport? the last bus that past my house was lost and the nearest bus stop is 7 miles away and i would need to drive there.
Solution as i see it:
Reduce fuel tax temporarily, invest the car tax 100% into the road system, and invest heavily into hydrogen cars and make them affordable and a real alternative for everybody!
F A B Scott
17-07-2005, 16:42
Originally posted by liadbacklad
...with my increased mileage so will my 'skill' at driving increase and i will no doubt drive faster and faster untill i have a fatal accident....I assume this was an attempt at humour. :eek:
My opinion in this area - good idea.
Remember you guys have been working out your figures based on the £1.34 quoted, which is the maximum amount for 1 mile - probably only on the M6 and M25 IMHO. Everywhere else will be somewhere between 10p and £1.34. (I havent read the articles recently, just relying on my somewhat shot memory :) )
There are far too many (I'm not saying everyone mind!) people that drive to work when there is a viable alternative. I was one of those people too. Recently I moved back to Scotland from Birmingham, and I was driving 10 miles accross town every day to get to work, when there was a viable train to take. Why? Because I like my car, my personal space, my music, my fags etc. Why get the train when I can go in my own personal space, choose my own temp in the car and get there 20 mins before the train? (on the way back its about the same travel time as the train). There are several other people doing exactly the same as me, driving when they only have to get 1 train to get to work. Hell getting the train is actually cheaper than driving on this peticular line, but we still do it, cos its worth it.
Now I live in Scotland, if I was working in Edinburgh and had to get to work from Peebles, then I have a situation. Bus is WAY more expensive than driving every day. Car sharing makes this more so. I take it that its places like this that the government wants to get more out of. All these people drive to work when they should be getting the (already quite busy) bus to work, because its way cheaper to drive and they can go to the area in Edinburgh they want to, instead of having to walk/bus/taxi when they get there.
As it is, I'm living in Broughton, it would be impossible for me to work in Edinburgh every day. Thankfully I still work for my company in Birmingham and work from home every day... :)
So all in all its probably a good idea, my personal opinion is that people who live in Cities shouldnt have cars anyway, they should accept that they are city folk and use the system (again not always possible, but just IMHO). Maybe the government could come up with a fleet of green cars for people like this to rent/use when they really need a car? I know these car sharing things have been tried before, but would really work if no one in Cities was allowed to own a car.
Also I'm not a fan of the Tax on fuel idea, as I would like to run a track car and possibly a rally car, I dont want to have to pay massive prices for fuel when Im not using the roads atall (although some of it you could say would be for greenhouse gases, but the point of this is congestion).
As for ID cards and privacy, well Im a fan of it all. If you've got nothing to hide why be bothered about the goverment knowing where you are? I do take issue with the auto-speeding thing (as I speed quite alot), but thats breaking the law anyway and who can really complain about being caught breaking the law?
I'm actually a fan of every person in the UK having a DNA swab taken and put onto a database. That would cut crime by a massive amount (or at least make it easier to find out who did things!).
Anyway I suppose I better do some work!
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